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Looking for "The Terminator" (1984) theatrical color grading
(2018-02-04, 08:57 AM)TomArrow Wrote: If it was a current one, someone could ask the seller to use his DSLR to take a RAW picture at a low ISO, from which it would be possible to recover shadow details.

Would be good if he does. I used a Canon 60D for mine (All the shots were done with ISO 200) but gonna be upgrading to the 5D Mark IV later in the year so I'll rescan it then, though I'd need to get another macro lens as my current one is crop sensor specific. I mainly got the equipment for scanning our family negatives and later gave film strips/cells a try.

EDIT: I put up the RAW shot of the Technoir shot if anyone wanted it, though looking at it now, the scan isn't that good. The light leak is more obvious when the Exposure is boosted. Don't exactly have the best method when it's placed on my lightbox. I'll try and get that sorted when I get the new camera this year: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8mQnm...nFHbjl2bXM
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(2018-02-04, 09:05 PM)brettd92 Wrote:
(2018-02-04, 08:57 AM)TomArrow Wrote: If it was a current one, someone could ask the seller to use his DSLR to take a RAW picture at a low ISO, from which it would be possible to recover shadow details.

Would be good if he does. I used a Canon 60D for mine (All the shots were done with ISO 200) but gonna be upgrading to the 5D Mark IV later in the year so I'll rescan it then, though I'd need to get another macro lens as my current one is crop sensor specific. I mainly got the equipment for scanning our family negatives and later gave film strips/cells a try.

EDIT: I put up the RAW shot of the Technoir shot if anyone wanted it, though looking at it now, the scan isn't that good. The light leak is more obvious when the Exposure is boosted. Don't exactly have the best method when it's placed on my lightbox. I'll try and get that sorted when I get the new camera this year: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8mQnm...nFHbjl2bXM

Thanks for the pic. This was the best I could get out of it without spending too much time:

   

Here the Blu Ray somewhat aligned:
   

Here the Blu Ray regraded with DrDre's ColorMatch (some ugly places because it's not the same frame, so imprecisions come in)
   

Comparison between Blu Ray (I presume?) and Blu Ray regraded to film: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/130921
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The frame is not exact because I did it on the fly by pausing it whenever it was close enough, to give a quick idea of the colors.

(2018-02-04, 06:37 PM)ilovewaterslides Wrote:
(2018-02-04, 11:11 AM)Evit Wrote: if I remember correctly 80s projectors bulbs were never white.


Well, no. 
You had two different types of light sources for a 35mm projector. Carbon arc and xenon lamp. 
Xenon started to replace carbon during the '70s basically. Saying that one is warmer or colder would be quite missleading. It's way more complicated than that. 
To be very simple and clear as possible, carbon arc had the reputation of giving perfect whites to the projected picture while xenon lamp was indeed kinda colder looking due to the technology itself but even worse, it was aging differently from a lamp to another so let's imagine that you used to run a theater equiped with xenon lights in a changeover configuration which means two projectors, you would have reel 1 on projector 1 looking blueish then reel 2 on projector 2 looking yellowish. That's just a very basic example but you get what I mean Smile

To answer your question, The Terminator probably looked very different in term of colors depending on which theater you would go to. It definitely has been projected with carbon arc, but in '84, these weren't that common to be honest. Even old lamphouses like the famous Peerless Magnarc were refurbished with xenon lamps!

Thanks ilovewaterslides. How do these different lights sources compare with a modern scanner though? Any way of knowing how to adjust the image accordingly? In my ignorance I'm very curious about the topic, considering the amount of "regrades" that are being done around here!
The big question is, is it even worth attempting a regrade if we can't be sure (or agree) on how it even looked?
AKA thxita on OriginalTrilogy
I preserve movies as they first appeared in Italy.
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Here's the TechNoir frame as seen in the UK PAL VHS:

[Image: vlcsnap-2018-02-05-12h55m15s303.png]

My capture is still uploaded if anyone on this thread wants to check it out (MKV, 2.7GB).
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If you want to find the exact frame, I recommend the player MPC-HC. You can use the Ctrl+Left and Ctrl+Right key combinations to skip through single frames. Look for places that are easy to identify, usually places where there is motion in front of detail/structure. I imagine in this case it could be his hands and depending on how fast it moves, the light on the ceiling, but probably his hands and the shotgun. This method has worked very reliably for me so far during numerous regrades.

@zoidberg I'd like to have a look at the LD, it looks pretty close to the film from that shot!
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(2018-02-05, 02:34 AM)Evit Wrote: Thanks ilovewaterslides. How do these different lights sources compare with a modern scanner though? Any way of knowing how to adjust the image accordingly? In my ignorance I'm very curious about the topic, considering the amount of "regrades" that are being done around here!
The big question is, is it even worth attempting a regrade if we can't be sure (or agree) on how it even looked?

It's a very good question. A scanner light should be comparable to a carbon arc lamphouse in term of colors as it's supposed to be pure white but the amount of brightness might not be sufficient. That would explain the black crush we get on the scanned results. The prints themselves are obviously darker than the negatives or interpositives of course but when projected, they look definitely more balanced than scanned. When it comes to regrades. I think these are interesting because we all try to approach the theatrical look and it's quite pleasing to see what everyone is achieving but we need to keep in mind that the "perfect theatrical look" of a movie is pretty much impossible to get as the colors will differ from a print to another and from a projector to another as well.
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I don't think such a thing as "pure white" exists. Our eyes adapt to to light to perceive it as white. Hence "white balance". Full spectrum exists though in theory I think, and the sun is pretty close to that.

As for the crushed blacks, I think it's simply a sensor/processor limitation on the scanner side. Take normal home 35mm scanners for example. They are designated with, if I recall correctly, Dmax and Dmin values, which stand for the maxium and minimum density that still shows detail in the scanned result. Dmax minus Dmin gives you the density range. The higher this value, the better your result in regards to crushed blacks/blown whites.

This correlates with what is called "dynamic range" on digital cameras like DSLRs. Typically, larger sensors have a better dynamic range. Now, it's true that often they choose to artificially limit the dynamic range on the software side, but this isn't true for the RAW files. Here you are limited by noise at the side of the blacks and with a filled "buffer" on the side of the whites. From what I have read, your typical "pixel" on a sensor is basically filled up with a charge through photons and then this charge gets "flushed" for processing the next frame. When there is too much light, then the buffer is basically "fully charged" and no longer changes its value in any meaningful way. The larger the sensor (assuming otherwise identical technology), the bigger this "buffer" before it blows out. On older CCD sensors that lacked some kind of "gates" I think, you could see light streaks flowing downwards or sideways from overflowing light spots; older guys here will remember this. So what you do is, you reduce the overall light intake (exposure time or f-stop). Problem for the darker parts of the image is: The darker the part of the image, the less photons. The less photons, the more they get lost in electrical noise.

So you see, a too dim light source is an improbable problem, considering you're capturing an unmoving object with as much time on your hand as you desire. The problem is that you cannot let it take in too much light without blowing the whites, so you're always living a compromise. The only way to avoid this problem is to take multiple exposures with different intensities and combine them, or to use a sensor with a higher dynamic range; or in other words: A sensor that can receive enough light to have detail in the shadows without blowing the highlights (overflowing the "buffer"). Yet another way that sometimes works is multiple exposures that get combined with median or the likes, but strangely my success with that has been somewhat limited when it comes to scanning film.

I'm no expert so there may be some errors in the details I described, but I think it should give you a fairly correct idea overall.
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A few things I noticed while looking at my original Hemdale DVD of the Terminator. I think the transfer might be out on hue slightly


Some shots are more so in the Wrong Hue -


Dump truck at the beginning first shot after credits
Some shots in Technoir club
Future War Terminator Infiltration
Tunnel Chase with the Bombs
Terminator when he first get's in the truck at the end


Basically there are various shots and parts littered throughout in the wrong Hue,


On the opening future war sequence 2 shots are placed in the wrong order.... It should be Robot Tank flashlight then the Tank Tracks then back to the upper body with Gun Shooting.


When the Cops first try to call Sarah Connor the answer phone is Purpleish. As of this momment much of the correct Color for Gingers apartment and the Technoir Club is strangely missing up until they leave by the back door into the alley. It's like the film is suddenly not stylized for quite a period of time. The purplish color is completely absent for the night scenes gingers apartment and the club in the transfer and I would also assume further transfers. I think this is an error. The Police station does not carry the purplish grade though that is meant to juxtapose with a different feel. A production still on the back of the hemdale DVD also backs up the outside of the Club should be blue lit whilst inside we have reds pinks purples and blue lights.


Strange Color on Stop Motion Terminator shots.

I found that the film was very desaturated compared to the deleted scenes by about 40-50%

Bearing in Mind that battle at the end A still on the back of the DVD shows a cyan type of light which in parts the Hemdale DVD looks like this but the vast majority of the time it is more purple / blue. I think the Hemdale is correct mostly at the end but where it goes Cyan it is actually meant to be Purple / Blue like the rest of the film. So It seems that the film is shifting about a bit and it would also seem certain shots or parts were treated differently or processed in a different way. So in summary the film is a bit all over the place but stick with the purple / blue and you find it is what comes up on top and the image is good like this it feels intended. The later releases have the warehouse by and large devoid of this blue / purple tint and devoid of the colored light.

Where is the music by Brad Fiedel that features in the final trailer?

Interesting this official music video has the blue tint in the apartment but still not much difference in the technoir club,,,, And various cyan vs purple / blue tints

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRBhxizY_TE

This is basically what I got and I think this is correct

[Image: The-Terminator-04-large3.jpg]

[Image: The-Terminator-05-large3.jpg]

[Image: The-Terminator-06-large2.jpg]
[Image: The-Terminator-08-large1.jpg]

This was from the Terminator fans
https://www.theterminatorfans.com/multim...reenshots/

This one though don't look quite right it's not blue enough or too green.

[Image: The-Terminator-09-large1.jpg]
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I read that the shots not in the right order actually were errors that Cameron fixed for the remaster. I think he also flipped some shots on the x axis on certains moments in that scene.
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I heard about flipping the Infiltrator Terminator from IMDB? But I could not see any evidence of any shots needing to be flipped but then again perhaps I have not looked hard enough?

I have no idea about different scene orders but I spotted it straight away.

Basically I have ripped my Hemdale DVD and done a job on it. Quick but looking at having a crappy DVD version at least but I went and deleted the dodgy Model of Arnold... Although it's bad in a way and it's (Early) Stan Winstons work I worked around it with using the eye and some other tweaks so it could be removed. I actually think it is the single thing that let's the film down and I wanted rid of it. But looking at the 35mm Cell I experimented with the Cyan tint that is present. On the actual shots of the Terminator Eye moving about It looks great because it adds a metallic look under the skin and it matched the warehouse later on. So in my opinion the 35mm is correct and it gives that sheen to the make up / model animatronics effects

Some other things I have found out since I last posted as I love to look for stuff that is missing.....

There is Music missing from the final monologue of Sarah Connor in the Jeep going through the Desert. It is present on the french mix or dub.

The trailer music that  has never been released I think goes with the infiltrator Terminator in the future (Bunker shoot out) but it blends into the main terminator theme at the end (as it has the rhythm underneath) and cut's as Reese flys through the air segwaying into the existing music. I am going to try this out but anyway doubtful at this time. But this is my instincts.

There is a deleted shot of one of those Tank type robots Crushing a car but unfortunately this has the miniature set lights in frame so it's not the original shot of the deleted scene more a documentary version. I Think this would have been placed when Reese has a flashback when sleeping in the car.

Anyway that is all I can find at the moment.

If you want to see any color results name the part and I will render a clip for you.
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