Hello guest, if you like this forum, why don't you register? https://forum.fanres.com/member.php?action=register (December 14, 2021) x


[Help] 2001: A Space Odyssey, Cinerama and 6.0 Stereo Sound

12 Replies, 346 Views

Hello, everyone! 

Let me introduce you to my next project. I want to create a CINERAMA version of 2001: A Space Odyssey. This movie was shown on a big curved screen all over the world. All 70mm prints carried 6 magnetic tracks, with 5 discrete channels behind the screen and one mono effects channel. I want to create a Smilebox version with the same audio channels, but not in 5.1 (without LFE) but in 6.0.

The first thing to modify will be the color correction. I wonder if the original look of this film was really like the remastered version:

REMASTERED BLU-RAY

[Image: c_image.php?max_height=1080&s=124352&a=0&x=0&y=0&l=0]

PREVIOUS BLU-RAY

[Image: c_image.php?max_height=1080&s=124256&a=0&x=0&y=0&l=0]

The MGM 1998 DVD was supervised by Stanley Kubrick, so it would be perfect to use as a reference for picture, but not for audio. In this release one line of dialogue is missing "I read you". The remastered DVD release includes that line but does not have the dialogue panned, as it should be in some scenes, it is centered. But there is a third option, the Warner 1999 DVD (not remastered and also supervised by Stanley Kubrick himself). This release includes the line "I read you" and the dialog is panned when it should be.

In this scene there should be a yellowish tint and the chairs should not be completely red but close to pink/purple. So, I think the ideal would be to get something close to this:

[Image: 2001-CINERAMA.png]

Christopher Nolan also made his own 2001 version, called "Unrestored." But it has been harshly criticized and they say it looks like he used Instagram filters. I haven't seen it, I don't know if it's really close or not to the look of the director-supervised version. Anyone seen it?

In my opinion, the remastered DVDs and Blu-rays don't look the way a film shot in 1968 should look. But that's just my opinion, I imagine nowadays no one will have that old 1999 Warner DVD to use as a reference anymore. If anyone still has it, please let me know.
Why go with 6.0 over 5.0?
Also do you have the 5.1 from the LD?
(2022-09-15, 02:53 PM)stwd4nder2 Wrote: Why go with 6.0 over 5.0?
Also do you have the 5.1 from the LD?

Because the sound format was magnetic six track stereo:
1 Left
2 Left Center
3 Center
4 Right Center
5 Right
6 A mono surround channel.
I don't have the 5.1 from the LD but possibly the Warner 1999 DVD and the LD have the same audio track and color timing.
Audio: this is the way to go! Ok
Grading: dunno which one is (more) theatrically accurate... if only we have a 35mm scan... Smile
Aspect ratio: frankly I don't like the "smilerama" version (unless you ACTUALLY project it in a Cinerama-ish screen) but it's only my opinion!

Eagerly waiting for any updates in your project!
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash... Sad
Fundamental Collection | Vimeo channel | My blog
(2022-09-15, 04:17 PM)Rankol Wrote: Because the sound format was magnetic six track stereo:
1 Left
2 Left Center
3 Center
4 Right Center
5 Right
6 A mono surround channel.

Left/Right Center isn't really something that can be produced on modern home equipment, unless you're encoding in atmos and create objects for them. But even then it's not super practical as you'd need front wides, which isn't very common.
(2022-09-15, 05:07 PM)stwd4nder2 Wrote:
(2022-09-15, 04:17 PM)Rankol Wrote: Because the sound format was magnetic six track stereo:
1 Left
2 Left Center
3 Center
4 Right Center
5 Right
6 A mono surround channel.

Left/Right Center isn't really something that can be produced on modern home equipment, unless you're encoding in atmos and create objects for them. But even then it's not super practical as you'd need front wides, which isn't very common.

Actually what are neede are not front wides - that would be placed at +/- 60°, but front "extras" (how SDDS call them) at +/- 15°.

And that would be great, much better than having four surround instead of two - or, better, three with an EX back center, as thought as Tomlinson Holman of THX fame (and not only) for his 10.2 surround system.
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash... Sad
Fundamental Collection | Vimeo channel | My blog
(2022-09-15, 05:20 PM)spoRv Wrote: And that would be great, much better than having four surround instead of two - or, better, three with an EX back center, as thought as Tomlinson Holman of THX fame (and not only) for his 10.2 surround system.

I disagree. The reason they where phased out in the first place is because there wasn't much audible separation between them and the other front channels, so it wasn't worth the effort of mixing them. And in a home environment, unless you have a very large space then the problem would be even worse.
And 4 surround channels over 2 is a noticeable improvement.
From "Development of a 22.2 Multichannel Sound System" - https://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/english/publica/bt/25/5.html

Quote:The score for the playback condition "Forward 3ch," in which only three front channels of the middle layer were played,
was greatly inferior to the "All used" condition, in which five front channels were used. This shows that the use of
five front channels was very effective in conveying realistic sensations.

It is what I thought, too. Then I listened to a setup with five screen channels and "only" two surrounds, and wow! It sounded so good, fuller - compared to that, lack of the two extra channels feels a bit anhemic. Said that, I don't want to imply that five front are MUCH better than only three, only that it helps... maybe let's say 10% better? It helped a lot with dialogue pans - sadly found mostly on very old movies like The Sound Of Music for example - but also to fill the small holes between the speakers.

Sure, if you have a small room and/or use only a small display, maybe it's not worth the hassle, but even with relatively small rooms (say 16sqm) and display (75") it works quite good; with bigger screens, like the one used with projectors (100" and more) then it's very worthy.  Problem is, there are almost no home media that use this layout - yet?

Notes: humans can spot a sound located one degree apart in front of them - so not a problem to discern sounds in front extras apart from center and left and right. And, while many have their couches attached on the rear wall, rendering difficult to use rear surround, ALL of them have space in front to add two more speaker - if their partner would allow that, though. Also, AFAIK all prefer to have an 5.1.4 immersive system rather than 7.1.2, as well as having front wides instead of rear surround.

Sadly Dolby - and, in minor way, DTS - won the cinematic sound battle, and Sony didn't support very strongly SDDS, with only a hundred titles using 8 channels Vs more than a thousand using only 6 channels. But personally I think it would be good to preserve these SDDS titles, along with Cinerama, Todd-AO and all the other 70mm films that used 6-track magnetic sound before the advent of Dolby (and very few after it) for a grandtotal of more than two hundred. And also some modern movie would benefit of it - like the Transformers saga, the last Star Trek trilogy and few others.

Best think IMHO would be to have 9 channels as bed for any format - FL FLC FC FRC FR SL SR RL RR (and adding possibly FWL FWR) - but now the trend is "get surrounded completely with your soundbar magic" (when they do not use only the TV speakers, or, worst, the headphones) so I guess I'm speaking to the wind... Big Grin
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash... Sad
Fundamental Collection | Vimeo channel | My blog
Interesting. My comment of 'it not being audible' is what I've read from interviews and such with audio engineers at the time (which now that I think of it, I'm sure Dolby "influenced" some of their thoughts). I've never experienced 5 fronts in person. But there's still the matter that the only way modern equipment can re-produce it is with Atmos, which can't be realistically encoded by us filthy peasants (yet).

Speaking of which has there been any official releases that do this? Most of the 70mm tracks that I can think of that are available are only in 5.1.
About hearing the difference, I'd should make a demo to show of how nicee are panning through five front channels instead on three... the only problem is, the moment you hear it, you are instactly addicted - much more than two more surround!

About a way to reproduce it: I'm working on it, so don't lose your hopes (still).

Well, the pre-Dolby 6-track magnetic were all 5 front channels + 1 mono surround - no LFE channel... :-)
And AFAIK at the time they blowup 35mm films to 70mm mainly to have 6 channels instead of four, so I guess they put something meaningful - sometimes, at least - on these front extra channels.
Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash... Sad
Fundamental Collection | Vimeo channel | My blog

Possibly Related Threads…
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  [Request] 1992 Walt Disney Classics Sorcerer Mickey Logo Laserdisc rip with PCM Sound dwalkerdon 8 2,270 2022-01-05, 06:16 AM
Last Post: Toonatic
  Dracula (1979) original Dolby Stereo track preservation Onti 12 1,908 2020-09-22, 07:24 PM
Last Post: pipefan413
  [Proposal] Lara Croft: Tomb Raider (2001) regrade spoRv 5 2,663 2018-12-31, 06:35 PM
Last Post: spoRv
  [proposal] Lost in Space (1998) regrade spoRv 13 8,509 2017-06-23, 11:08 PM
Last Post: spoRv
  The Crow original sound mix? Stamper 27 13,642 2017-02-16, 11:33 PM
Last Post: dvdmike
Question [proposal] The Lone Gunmen - TV series (2001) spoRv 6 5,386 2015-02-03, 08:10 AM
Last Post: guiser



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)